Danny Jenkins raised an interesting point in his response to the Badiou quote about identity politics and capitalistic territorialization I posted last week. His comment was that the Hauerwasian system, “refuses to allow the Christian narrative to capitulate to a standard of rationality foreign to it.” In other words, for Hauerwas (and others of like mind) the narrative of the church is prior to and more fundamental than any narrative “the world” has on offer, which in the west is primarily the narrative of the secular.
I agree with Danny’s appraisal of the “Hauerwasian system,” and because I agree with it I find the relationship between Christianity and the wider public sphere to be a most interesting issue. Because America is a secular nation it is assumed that there is something prior to and more fundamental than any particular religious tradition that allows diverse groups of people to come together and achieve a common good. In the case of the West, that something prior is “rationality.” In his book, Democracy and Tradition, Jeffrey Stout argues that,
Central to democratic thought as I understand it is the idea of a body of citizens who reason with one another about the ethical issues that divide them, especially when deliberating on the justice or decency of political arrangements. It follows that one thing a democratic people had better have in common is a form of ethical discourse, a way of exchanging reasons about ethical and political topics. The democratic practice of giving and asking for ethical reasons, I argue, is where the life of democracy principally resides.
~ Jeffrey Stout, Democracy and Tradition (Princeton: Princeton Univ. Press, 2003), p. 6.
Key here for Stout is that we, as a diverse members of a democratic society, need to come together and reason with one another about the ethical issues that shape our political life together. There are two important things to note in Stout’s argument:
First, unlike other liberal democratic theorists like John Rawls and Richard Rorty, Stout believes that particular ethical convictions, which are derived from particular socio-linguistic traditions, ought to play a part in America’s democratic deliberation. In this regard, Stout is acknowledging that a person’s conception of the good is, perhaps more than anything else, shaped by their religious convictions. Furthermore, he is acknowledging the merit of “traditionalists” like MacIntyre, Hauerwas, and Milbank who argue that each particular tradition has its own unique rationality inherent to the tradition itself.
Second, despite giving this nod to what Stout refers to as the “New Traditionalism,” he maintains that there there is a form of reasoning prior to and more fundamental than these particular religious traditions. Thus, while seemingly affirming the argument of the Hauerwasian system — that ethical convictions are not derived from universal reason but from particular traditions — Stout goes on to posit a base-level rationality that is large enough to encompass all other traditioned particularities.
Stout’s positing of such a base-level rationality is seen most clearly in his chapter addressing the claims of John Milbank. Milbank, who rejects the narrative of a secularity more fundamental than Christianity, does so on the basis that the secular narrative inherently works to police the narrative of Christianity into a posture of submission. In response to this Stout counters that,
[Secularism] entails neither the denial of theological assumptions nor the expulsion of theological expression from the public sphere. And it leaves believers free to view both the state and democratic political culture as domains standing ultimately under divine judgment and authority. That believers view the political sphere in this way does not entail that others will, of course. But this just means that the age of theocracy is over, not that the anti-Christ has taken control of the political sphere (Democracy and Tradition, 93).
But what is Stout here advocating other than the basic separation of church and state? In the land of religious freedom all are welcome, and even encouraged, to worship in their own manner, so long as they don’t expect any one else to have to share in their religious convictions… of course. And this is where Stout really belies his ideological convictions, for by adding “of course” he is essentially saying “duh!” It is just common sense that no one should have to accept as reality that God is in control. But what this means is that, even though you can believe what you want, it will not have real purchase in the political sphere, at least as a discourse-shaping narrative. Rather, the political sphere requires a narrative that supersedes all religious and traditional particularities, a proposition that, for the radical Christian, is unacceptable. Radical Christianity must reject the “common sense” of Stout’s democratic deliberation, because it requires a subordination of the Christian narrative to the narrative of the state.
Stout claims that this subordiation of the Chrisitan narrative to the narrative of the state does not mean the anti-Christ has taken control. Instead, he argues, it simply means we’ve moved beyond the age of Theocracy. However, I’m wondering if there is a difference. If we have to subordinate our narrative to that of the state or some other form of rationality, thus relegating Christian conviction to the realm of the private, are we not abdicating Christ from the public sphere? Is this not anti-Christ?
It seems that Christian convictions require that we refuse to be just one voice among many within a neutral or secular public sphere. We must refuse a rationality or narrative that is prior to or more fundamental than Christianity. If this makes us Theocratic, then so be it.

43 responses so far ↓
Halden // February 4, 2008 at 3:29 pm |
This is good. To my mind the question is not (contra Stout) whether or not Christianity is theocratic – which, I take to mean implies a total vision for all aspects of life including the political – but rather the particular character and content of Christianity’s political claims. To be theocratic does not in and of itself require us to be violent or hegemonic.
Christian // February 4, 2008 at 3:55 pm |
No, you’re right, it doesn’t. And I do appreciate what Stout is attempting to do. I just don’t see that he is doing anything all that new. At the end of the day it seems that his vision for democratic deliberation will render offensive any Christian who presumes that Christianity provides, “a total vision for all aspects of life including the political,” and refuses to be one voice among many equally valid attempts to provide such a total vision.
I think this quickly moves us back to the question that I raised in the first Beyond the Narrative post: How can we work across traditions for a common good? Won’t our attempts to provide a vision for all things inevitably clash or compete? And that is to say if you can get the majority of Americans to even accept that they have a totalizing vision. And I can’t imagine this conversation happening with any of the new atheists… at least not while they’re making so much money from their books sales.
roflyer // February 5, 2008 at 12:40 pm |
It seems to me that in order for Stout or anyone else to posit some other base rationality beyond or prior to religious particularity one must include some notion of natural theology or natural law. Is there some fundamental natural “rationality” or “reason” that can transcend our cultural-linguistic particularities? I run into this all the time in discussions with Catholic moral theologians who are dying to find ways to make Christian faith and values intelligible to a secular world. Like their atheist counterparts, I find the appeal to the “natural” to be totally unconvincing.
adamsteward // February 5, 2008 at 2:36 pm |
Great post, Christian.
I agree with roflyer that universalizing rationalities have to be grounded in some appeal to natural law. To me, it seems apparent that in the political arena there is no appeal other than to the good of the state. So, we make our arguments based on their projected capacity to make the state more secure, healthy, etc. Folks may disagree about just what the good of the state consists of, but that is the controlling logic for all, the empty symbol that each group attempts to fill with their notion of success.
Danny // February 5, 2008 at 3:35 pm |
A few comments here. First, I would regard Stout not as a liberal-democratic theorist, but as someone who champions democracy over liberalism. Keep in mind, we are dealing with terms that have a variety of meanings. Stout sees in “political liberalism”, namely that of Rawls, Rorty, Charles Larmore, etc. the need to protect rights by limiting religious discourse. By champoning democracy over liberalism he is suggesting that the democratic right of free expression is more fundamental than liberalisms attempt to adjudicate who gets to speak and on what terms. As such, this position could entail theocracy. Stout is willing to live with the fact that if in a particular county or state there are a majority of religious citizens then allowing them to appeal to their religious convictions without mediation could resultin the illegality of abortion and teaching Darwinism, while allowing for school prayer for instance. This is in my mind perhaps the weakness of the turn to democracy that is associated with the Princeton School (Stout and Eric Gregory in particular and Cornel West to a lesser extent). As Eric Gregory recently put, democracy lets a thousand flowers bloom. As such, it cannot protect against the tyranny of the majority. Paradoxically in its attempt to bridge the divide that so characterizes America culture it could result in furthering it.
I am at odds with the suggestion that a prior rationality necessarily entails sometype of natural law or metarationality. This weakness of Stout is that he refuses to engage much with the Continental tradition since he is attempting to carve out a particular American pragmatist philosophy.
Let me put differently what Stout is getting at with what Christian describes as a base level rationality by appealing to the work of the French political philosopher Claude Lefort. He puts forward a post-foundational conception of the political by suggesting that it is the political “form” of society that precedes any conception of public reason and is the source for the differention that characterizes political disagreement today. Without the symbolic dimension of the social the conceptual resources necessary to engage in debate would be lacking. This is the common culture which Stout speaks about. It is an abstract idea and obvious is influenced by Lacan and grossly presented here. However, it is certaintly post-foundational.
Danny // February 5, 2008 at 3:38 pm |
Can you tell that I do not proof read?
Christian // February 5, 2008 at 10:13 pm |
Danny,
I’m interested to hear more on Lefort. I know absolutely nothing, but know that you esteem him highly. Can you explain articulate how his idea of a “political ‘form’ of society” is not foundational? It seems that it would be if it is some sort of universal condition that underlies any traditioned particularity.
- Christian
Danny // February 6, 2008 at 4:22 pm |
Let me first reference Lefort’s essay, “The Permanence of the Theologico-Political” which can be found at:
http://flatiron.sdsc.edu/projects/sect/file_upload/background_lefort.pdf
Second, since I am working through this very issue on my thesis at the moment I will be able to best articulate what Lefort means by the ‘form’ of society in a few weeks.
By way of passing, let me remark that Lefort suggest that there is a symbolic dimension to the political that is both irreducible and inseparable from the classifications that characterize modern society (economics, political science, religion, etc). This dimension is not immutable and can be altered by significant historical events.
Lefort argues that the symbolic dimension of pre-modern society was associated with the notion of the King’s two bodies. One human and fleshly the other a representation of the divine. The symbolic dimension of premodernity is therefore rooted in another place, namely the transcendent. With the advent of modernity the King’s body is overthrown and hence the symbolic dimension of society is transformed. Instead of it being rooted in another place it is now immanent.
Lefort, describes modernity as the disincarnated society in which the king has been beheaded yet the place of power remains but as an empty place. Democracy is that institution in which various factions struggle through democratic means to obtain this power, but their right to it is indefintely called into question and issues of legitmacy are forever debated. Communism for Lefort, is in a sense, a secularized version of the King’s two bodies, in which the people as “One” try to reoccupy the place of the King, but with devasting results.
Notice that this has a lot in common with Radical Orthodoxy, which is interesting because as far as I know Lefort is not discussed by anyone within RO. In particular, Lefort acknowledges the consequences of the destruction of analogical reason, namely the disincarnation of the King’s two bodies. Also, Lefort does not take the notion to be a metaphor.
All this is non-foundational in that Lefort seems to be suggesting that there is nothing essential about society, about humans, or about history and at any moment the symbolic instution of society can radically change resulting in an entirely different political form or regime.
Christian // February 6, 2008 at 10:31 pm |
This is all quite interesting, but you and I will need to discuss this further… or I’ll just need to read the article you posted.
In the mean time, can you tell me how this is not a metaphor?
Dwight // February 7, 2008 at 1:11 am |
I may be misreading this post but I think there seems to be a collapsing of the “Christian narrative” and Christ or God in Christ. It’s a move I don’t think that can be made.
First because Christian tradition is a broad thing indeed. It contains any number of reasonings, methods, committments, and conclusions some that work and some that clash with one another. Getting a single narrative out of that seems unlikely.
But even if one could get such a narrative, all we could really be speaking about is how we as Christians have sought to engage the world, have made sense of our own history, etc. It has all the marks of a human creation.
If it’s a human creation than a stronger distinction between that and “God’s view” seems to in order. Our ways are not God’s way. We confess the finite, limited, historical position by which we have spoken of God. But it is not God.
In this way it’s possible to affirm that this world and what God may have for it, is wider, has more elements to it than our Christian narrative can be in a position to recognize.
But even if not, we don’t have to appeal to some universal rationality, neither that of the state or of some “public square”. All we have to do is to recognize the limits, the finitudes of our own vantage point.
John // February 7, 2008 at 1:14 am |
Any and every religion that claims to possess the one “true” way/revelation/faith has effectively declared war against ALL other religions and their cultural manifestations, and will, given the opportunity, use whatever means it can to “convert” everyone else to the “one” way.
The two religions that specialize in this are the two would be world conquering power seeking political “religions” of Islam & Christianity. Plus Judaism, in the form of Zionism as now being dramatised in Israel, also does this, though to a lesser degree.
As though groups of egos of any size, who are by their very nature and action, infinitely godless, have anything to do with the Indivisible Divine Conscious Light.
Danny // February 7, 2008 at 10:28 am |
Let’s just talk about it. For now: The famed British political theorist Quentin Skinner suggested ( I believe in his small book Liberty before Liberalism) that it is absurd to believe that the notion of the King’s Body in the pre-modern period was anything else but a metaphor. I believe Lefort sees it as constituting the social-imaginary of this period and as such was geniunely believed in.
Drew // February 7, 2008 at 1:36 pm |
Christian,
Interesting discussion indeed.
“We must refuse a rationality or narrative that is prior to or more fundamental than Christianity. If this makes us Theocratic, then so be it.”
Dwight raises the issue of if not subordinate to another external rationality, then what Christian rationality would one espouse to be foundational for the business of the state? The problem on a pragmatic ground with the assertion that Christianity must be the fundamental rational structure raises this and other issues that prompted the drafting of the separation norm in the first place. If any one rationality other than an equality of rational positions is held absolute and non-negotiable, then this will lead to tyranny. It has in the past and continues to do so today (e.g. Muslim theocracies that demand assent to particular interpretations of the Qu’ran). This is why any theocratic rule results in oppression.
Thus, the issue is not which is subordinate, but what in the Christian worldview one would espouse is negotiable. So let’s say that a particular Christian rational system is held as foundational to other systems of rational engagement in the business of the state. The problem that arises if you do not achieve unquestioned consensus here is oppression. Leszek Kolakowski argues for this in his essay “The Death of Utopia” in reprinted in Modernity on Endless Trial. For Kolakowski this is not specific to religion per se, but any particularistic and absolute notion of what the best of all possible world might be. That is a vision of utopia that is at once particular and essentially non-negotiable.
So to avoid oppression, that rational foundation must have elements that are negotiable and are able to flex for other rational systems to have voice in the process. This is the principle behinds the establishment norm. By making democratic negotiation between ideas of the world the rational system, it allows for constant negotiation that the people are to implement on a regular basis. It is a rather non-foundational idea and the foundation itself is something that we negotiate through the system of checks and balances. Quite genius actually if you look at the big picture.
So my question to you is: How can the conception of the state that you propose in my quote above not result in tyranny and oppression since it must espouse a particular view of Christianity?
On an side note, Anti-christ for John is a manifestation of spirit that takes the form of Christianity, but is either devoid of the true Christ or mediates a false Christ. He is speaking to the situation of “many Messiahs” in his day. It is opposition only in terms of deception and was a concept quite particular to his pluralistic context even though the concept has merit in any pluralistic context it seems. Raymond Brown’s commentary on the Johannine epistles is worth a read for this.
John Feeney // February 7, 2008 at 2:01 pm |
This essays argument while interesting, puts me – as both a committed Christian and a law student – in a quandary. I have to deal with irreconcilable claims both having equal validity with me. On the one hand I am in partial agreement with theologians like Hauerwas, Milbank et. al. that the Christian’s commitment to the Church community transcends his relationship to the State, and that this allegiance takes priority over any allegiance to the State. Discipleship trumps citizenship. However, to impose the particular language and values of the Church onto the whole of secular society itself, or to integrate it within the existing state would seem to present huge problems for the maintenance what we call “Democracy.” In theory at least, the American democratic system is based on popular sovereignty, and not the sovereignty of a Deity (or religious institution that presumes to speak for the Deity) it is “We the People” who are affirmed as sovereign, not “God” who called sovereign in the United States. I see a slippery slope descending toward a theocracy that would be destructive of both Church and State together.
Christian // February 7, 2008 at 3:23 pm |
Dwight,
I am not clear how you see me collapsing God in Christ… or even what you mean by that.
As for a Christian narrative, I am using that phrase to refer not to one specific way being Christian that all Christians agree to. Rather, I am referring to the tradition of Christianity (that is quite divergent), which takes for granted certain base level beliefs that are not logically or rationally reduceable: God exists, he is triune, he was incarnate and walked the earth, he died and was resurrected, we have a collection of writings that bear witness to wha it means to worship/follow this particular God. And I am arguing two things about these assumptions: 1) They inform our ethics in particular ways, and 2) They are more basic and fundamental than the rationality or the public sphere.
I agree with you that when you say that “it’s possible to affirm that this world and what God may have for it, is wider, has more elements to it than our Christian narrative can be in a position to recognize.” But I don’t see that this undoes my point. In fact, I am not clear what it is that you are offering as an alternative.
Robb // February 7, 2008 at 3:28 pm |
Just to touch on something…
People have thrown around the terms “theocratic” and “Milbank” in the same sentence. Milbank speaks about this, claiming that he is not for theodicy or some variation thereof because the theocrat, by definition, still assumes that there is a secular worldview to be ‘theocratic’ over.
If everything is sacred, then a different discussion emerges.
Drew // February 7, 2008 at 3:43 pm |
Christian:
“not logically or rationally reduceable: God exists, he is triune, he was incarnate and walked the earth, he died and was resurrected, we have a collection of writings that bear witness to wha it means to worship/follow this particular God.”
Sure they are reducible. How does God exist and how do we know this to be true? How is God Triune? What kind of Incarnation? Bodily resurrection? Are these writings infallible?
I raise these questions because for Christianity it has clearly not been enough to say these statments without explication of what they mean. That’s why Christianity is so divergent.
Thus, to say these are the fundamentals and they are irreducible seems to be a rather arbitrary claim and it is simply not a probable outcome to assert that any consensus could be reached under voluntary means.
Christian // February 7, 2008 at 4:00 pm |
Drew,
I don’t and did not argue for a vision of the state. I am simply stating that in a pluralistic situation the “quite genius” solution that you speak of, wherein democratic deliberation forms the basis of social cohesion, is ultimately founded upon an anthropology that assumes “rationality as such” to be the common denominator for political deliberation. I have been influenced enough by Alasdair MacIntyre to ask, whose rationality are we referring to? The idea that we can reason together across our differences, a belief that is foundational to modern democratic political configurations, is a particular belief that has its own tradition. So the question ends being, not whether or not their will be one dominant tradition that subordinates all others to itself, but which tradition will do this.
And I don’t for second assume that the modern “state” which you have described is non-coercive or non-oppressive. The history of western democracies has been one in which all participants inside have been allowed the freedom to be themselves and (increasingly to) participate in discussion about the common good. However, outside of this sphere, such democracies are quite vigilant that they become the universal rational framework for the world. This can be seen quite clearly with the American involvement in the Middle East.
Also,
I am not arguing about an inter-traditional discussion wherein we would determine what it means if God is triune, etc. Rather, I am arguing that when Christians and non-Christians attempt to discuss the ethical concerns that shape the common good they have base level assumptions (at the most basic one must assume that “The Christian God” is real and makes claims on our lives) that are not shared by those outside of our quite divergent tradition. Whether or not God is real and is Lord of the world is an issue that cannot be reduced to logic or pure reason. It requires an assumption about the nature of the world, a mythos if you will, that is prior to reason. At least, that is my argument.
I think it would be helpful to cite MacIntyre’s definition of a tradition, to help clear things up. In After Virtue he writes,
Christian // February 7, 2008 at 4:13 pm |
John,
I’m not in disagreement with you that democracy is premised on the sovereignty of the people. I just don’t know how that is reconcilable with the claim that Christianity is premised on the sovereignty of God/the Lordship of Christ.
I am not advocating a position here, I am simply pointing toward our dilemma: if we claim that Christ is Lord of all, then shouldn’t we mean it… all the way down (or up)?
I think Hauerwas said it best: “I’m a theocrat. It’s just that it’s hard to rule when you have to rule nonviolently.”
The issue to me is not whether or not we are theocratic, it is how we are to live into the rule of Christ.
Christian // February 7, 2008 at 4:14 pm |
Robb,
Do tell, how does the conversation change.
Drew // February 7, 2008 at 4:30 pm |
If you are not arguing for any conception of how the state is structured which implies a foundation in Christianity along these lines, what exactly are you arguing for when you say, “that Christian convictions require that we refuse to be just one voice among many within a neutral or secular public sphere. We must refuse a rationality or narrative that is prior to or more fundamental than Christianity. If this makes us Theocratic, then so be it” if not a system, a state, of governing human social organization. (This might be merely semantic so you can replace my use of “state” with “system of government” if you prefer.)
“whose rationality are we referring to”
Precisely my question. But my argument is that a secular state simply has a higher probability of not being oppressive. Or to rephrase, a theocratic state has a higher probability of being more oppressive and coercive than a secular state does. I do not argue that it cannot since it surely can and has in the past. But that a theocratic state has not only the bane of history to substantiate its oppressive nature, our current systems bear credibility to this assertion I think quite well.
If we have multiple rationalities, why choose one over the other? Do we choose Christianity on the basis of revelation alone? What is the test you employ to decide that this is indeed the foundation? And if this revelation is not shared, what happens then? If we have multiple rationalities, what is the basis for preferring one over the other?
This assumption about God, to my point, how is it something that can found a government that allows difference to actually shape and legislate conduct and also allow for freedom of conscience? It is an assumption, and my question is why this assumption when it has been problematic for so long in human history? The evidence does not bear witness to its success and I am not convinced that you or anyone else has offered a substantial argument for a reformed theocracy in which freedom of conscience can be the norm when based on non-negotiable religious constructs that are ultimately rooted in revelation. Of course that basis for you might not be revelation, but if not, I am interested to hear what that rational basis to choose Christianity as a basis of government is.
Or perhaps you should not have used the term Theocracy at all since this is clearly the probable outcome of your assertion that I am challenging.
Drew // February 7, 2008 at 4:31 pm |
Christian to #19, Jesus said it already, Render unto Caesar what is Caesar and to God what is God’s.
Christian // February 7, 2008 at 9:05 pm |
Drew,
I think we are talking past each other because you do not understand the foundation of my argument within the paradigm of people like Yoder, Hauerwas, and MacIntyre. I suggest you begin reading them and then you will be able to understand what this post is about.
In the mean time, I can point to your posing questions using “we” and ask you who you mean. I am referring to Christians living in the context of America. This means that we do not control the state, but exist alongside others who do. I am arguing that there is a foreign rationality at work that seeks to be more fundamental and prior to our own rationality that is founded in Christ. That is all. In this post I am not making suggestions for what a Christian state ought to look like, or even that their ought to be one.
As for your “Render to Caesar’s what is Caesar’s”… you certainly are arguing within a particular Christian position, but not one that I think is tenable. Essentially you are saying that Jesus has nothing to politics. You should now that there is a truck load of scholars that would beg to differ with you. I’ll let you take that up with them.
d. w. horstkoetter // February 7, 2008 at 9:15 pm |
This reading suggestion is directly for John Feeney, but it would also be helpful for others talking about theocracy. I suggest a read through of William Cavanaugh’s “The Empire of the Empty Shrine” found here: http://www.catholicanarchy.org/cavanaugh/Cavanaugh%20-%20The%20Empire%20of%20the%20Empty%20Shrine.pdf. I think you might find it an interesting read and helpful in theologically re-understanding popular sovereignty.
Essentially, Cavanaugh argues that the way Capitalism and Democracy functions now isn’t all that different from a conventional “theocracy.” And actually, I think there is quite a bit to argue that the current form of Capitalism and the modern nation-state is inherently colonial and therefore coercively maintains the pluralism while doing violence to faiths and communities of faith through co-opting and commodifying (I make this argument in here: http://flyingfarther.wordpress.com/towards-a-political-theology/).
I personally do not buy into the narrative of the state and the market. Following that shift, the conventional stories of power seem to melt away and theocracy isn’t exactly the greatest evil for everyone, because the democracy functions religiously and is just as oppressive as a “theocracy” (although I would argue that going back to Christendom would be a terrible idea, you hear me Huckabee?).
Drew // February 8, 2008 at 6:14 am |
Christian,
My use of “we” is strictly rhetorical.
I am not talking past you as much as questioning the probable outcomes for your conclusion in the post.
Christian, with all do respect I have read Hauerwas and I also think that his conception is not quite on either (see Resident Aliens). I am also quite aware of MacIntyre’s understanding of tradition and I would also offer Delwin Brown’s arguments regarding the same in Boundaries of our Habitations. I think I do understand what you are saying and I think the outcome is improbable or will result in sectarianism not unlike the Amish.
“I am arguing that there is a foreign rationality at work that seeks to be more fundamental and prior to our own rationality that is founded in Christ.”
“In this post I am not making suggestions for what a Christian state ought to look like, or even that their ought to be one.” But you do.
You take this in a place I simply do not agree with with the assertion “We must refuse a rationality or narrative that is prior to or more fundamental than Christianity. If this makes us Theocratic, then so be it.” And this is the bone of my contention since you imply a theocracy as the outcome of the position – that is clearly an argument leading to a specific kind of governmental structure, or state as it were. So even if you are not “making suggestions for what a Christian state ought to look like” you make a clear statement that this is where the outcome may even likely proceed. By ending with “so be it” you write off the outcomes of that position and this is what I am pushing you to define more clearly since I am arguing that such an outcome is morally wrong. That is all.
Theocracy results in oppression through tyranny and/or sectarianism. The former outcome is morally reprehensible and the latter outcome is something one chooses, but not all that helpful or constructive in my view.
“Essentially you are saying that Jesus has nothing to politics.”
Not at all. This is more along the lines of Locke’s Letter Concerning Toleration where the business of the church and the magistrate operate in separate spheres with mutual respect as the first amendment norm reinforces. So again, where we seem to disagree is the outcome of your conclusion, “We must refuse a rationality or narrative that is prior to or more fundamental than Christianity. If this makes us Theocratic, then so be it.”
So my question in this regard is what does it look like if Christians place their traditional rational assumptions about Christianity prior to those of the state – especially if it results in a Theocracy? Perhaps if you wish to continue the dialogue you can focus on this question as it relates to your argument as I quoted above.
Christian // February 8, 2008 at 7:46 am |
Drew,
I think we are at a point, rhetorically, where we need to agree to disagree. And I do not say this to end the discussion. I say this because if we do in fact both understand what is being argued here, we just simply disagree. You seem to be arguing a classic liberal position that the state should be the container for religion in order to avoid tyranny or bloodshed. I, on the other hand, view the state to be itself a form of tyranny and certainly one capable of requiring the type of bloody sacrifice you seem worried that a theocracy will entail. Furthermore, I think that we undermine our faith when subordinate it to the prerogatives and logic of the state and its social configurations.
When I say that if this makes Christianity theocratic, I do not mean we are to run the state (how would this even be possible?). It means that we are to reject this foreign logic as anti-Christ.
You do not agree. That is fine. But just because you do not agree with me does not obligate me to offer a theory of a theocratic state… because I’ve never claimed we ought to have one.
Stout’s point was that secularism marks the end of theocracy (as a specific form of government). I am saying that as Christians we cannot allow another form of rationality to govern us, whether it be that of another religion or that of the supposedly “secular” state. And I do not think this entails that we either have to be Amish or become tyrannical leaders.
It would be a fair question to ask, What now? How do we engage politically without capitulation to a foreign rationality? And that is an answer that would be worth exploring. But simply not having an answer to the “what now” does not mean that we cannot critically engage with what is wrong with the way things are.
Christian // February 8, 2008 at 7:47 am |
Drew,
One more thing. You might want to read the post by David above and peruse his links. I’m not convinced that you are familiar enough with the discourse you are rejecting.
Halden // February 8, 2008 at 10:34 am |
“the church and the magistrate operate in separate spheres with mutual respect “
Geh…HA HA! Ahhhh ha ha ha ha ha!!!
Sorry, reading somebody post that in all seriousness just made me laugh all over the place.
Seperate spheres? Please. The idea that such things exist is naivete at its most pronounced.
Drew // February 8, 2008 at 2:29 pm |
And I am not convinced that there is anything wrong with the way things are so there you go. I am not convinced that this undermines faith at all.
And I am pushing the what now question because as it stands the implications to me are unsatisfying ends.
I would be interested to see where you would go with this too. And I apologize if I pushed that issue prematurely with my inference.
The separate spheres comment was in reference to the first amendment norm in which church and state must have functions isolated to their offices that do not overlap. Do they overlap at points. Yes. But they are not the same thing and ought not be.
Cheers.
Halden // February 8, 2008 at 3:14 pm |
“I am not convinced that there is anything wrong with the way things are”
Oh, the hits just keep on coming! This is hilarious! Yes, of course, everything is just fine the way it is! Why didn’t I see it before?!
Have you perchance ever met a poor person?
Drew // February 8, 2008 at 4:00 pm |
Good Lord Halden, let me clarify the point of reference. The point of reference has to do with “just one voice among many within a neutral or secular public sphere”. That is what I am quite fine with and to wit the point of disagreement so it seems.
So fricken’ presumptuous my brother…
d. w. horstkoetter // February 8, 2008 at 4:11 pm |
Drew, I suggest a read through some post-colonial critiques of the status quo. They’re not exactly “Hauerwasian,” but they’ll definitely point out problems with the status quo.
As for explicitly Christian critiques of the status quo, pretty much any liberation theology (black, feminist, ecofeminist, womanist, mujerista, etc.), Christian/Marxist analysis, a lot of Catholic social teaching, or negative theology would work. If you want any specific sources named, just ask, because there are plenty of people who are actively hurt by “the way things are.” And that fact calls the whole system into question – breaking people undermines people and in so doing, the system works against faith it doesn’t control.
Halden // February 8, 2008 at 4:16 pm |
Uh, yeah I understood the point of reference. And I found it outlandish and, well, hilariously misinformed.
Christianity by its very nature does not consider itself “one voice among others” because it understands itself to proclaim what is true and valid for all people.
This is pretty basic stuff here, dude.
Drew // February 8, 2008 at 5:18 pm |
“it understands itself to proclaim what is true and valid for all people”
and legislating this leads to oppression.
Drew // February 8, 2008 at 5:35 pm |
d.w.,
Thanks but I have read Cone, Gutierrez, Ruether, Johnson, etc. and I have made it through plenty of Marxist and postmodern critiques usually from a more agnostic perspective and maybe that’s the problem here.
I understand the “basic stuff” as Halden refers, I just do not think that the probable outcomes of the position presented at the end of the post here are particularly good ones.
In other words, if we are to accept that Christianity of some sort is to be “what is true and valid for all people” what is it that we are talking about exactly and what does it look like if we organize *all* people around it or even proposing the project for this to be so? How are either sectarianism or oppressive tyranny *not* logical outcomes of this position? How can we possibly maintain this position without legislating coercive assent to non-negotiable propositions?
Maybe you could entertain those questions in light of all of this “basic stuff”? Thanks.
Christian // February 8, 2008 at 7:38 pm |
Drew,
In this post I am merely echoing the work of people like Yoder, Hauerwas, MacIntyre, Milbank, Cavanaugh, Stringfellow, and so on. This is a tradition within Christianity that is uncomfortable with your happy and mutually respecting relationship between the magisterium and church. Essentially this post is saying that what is established in the first amendment to The Constitution cost Christians more than they can give without losing their own identity.
Again, it is clear that you do not agree with this. And this is where we differ. We can surely develop the conversation along those lines, but I am not sure either of us would be open to changing our minds. At least I am sure that I would not.
I do want to say that your question is a reasonable one, but I don’t think the burden of proof should be on Christians who want to have the Lordship of Christ be more fundamental than the sovereignty of the state. You must admit that the secular nation state, which ostensibly saves us from tyranny and sectarianism, is itself tyrannical and sectarian… at least from the perspective of the universal Body of Christ. So why should not the question be turned back to you: how can you defend a nation state system that requires Christians to kill other Christians in the name of the nation? How is the “will of the people” any less tyrannical than a dictator? Even the founders were concerned with this latter issue.
d. w. horstkoetter // February 8, 2008 at 7:59 pm |
Drew,
Oppressive tyranny, at least in my mind, is not the story of Jesus’ life, of the cross and the resurrection – an oppressive narrative wasn’t Jesus. Also, quite simply, neither was Jesus sectarian. Sectarians are people who withdraw, but people who fundamentally disagree and provide an alternative way of being that continually engages the present reality are not sectarians. Jesus turned over the temple; the prophetic “anarchy” of the kingdom is not in danger of sectarianism or tyranny, instead, an unbalanced theology is.
This is similar to say, a fundamentalist/dispensationalist aversion to caring for the environment. Some say, who cares about the earth, it’ll burn anyway. And I’ve heard criticism of this, that “their idea of the end times is problematic and governs their idea of creation.” This is not exactly true. Sure its problematic, but the reason they don’t have a care for creation is because their theology of creation sucks. Their theology is unbalanced.
Staying faithful to the narrative/memory of Jesus will keep us away from, or at least challenges Christianity, from becoming sectarian or tyrannical. In fact, I would say that the story of Jesus, as it forms the church, calls the church into the margins of those who are colonized. It also helps that the state and the market look to domesticate the story of Jesus, which already places the church, following Jesus, in the margins. Continual solidarity with the hurt/poor and critique of the rich/powerful is the ontological center of the church and to move away from this mission of the basileia is to begin to lose our way. This makes the church a protestor, an agitator, a watchdog and a shelter if you will.
Its not like the church actually runs anything anymore and a return to christendom doesn’t seem likely (or something I want). The question is, will the church hold onto its hope so that it will continue to be the church? If this is a yes, I think we can easily say that the church will continue to function on an entirely different plane, as it seeks to be Christ – the one who died proclaiming the basileia and saw the defeat of death by God.
Drew // February 8, 2008 at 8:17 pm |
Thanks,
And I am perfectly fine disagreeing, I just like to see where the probable outcomes lead. I am not out to change your mind, just to ask the right kinds of questions the best way. Reading your post again, I think it might be the “radical” qualifier for Christianity that might be the root of the quandary here…
To your questions which are certainly reasonable here, I want to first qualify that I do not think that the status-quo is perfect nor do I think that the current system is perfect. I do not support the actions of the state regardless of what they are, nor do I think it is a Christian duty to assent to actions that are essentially “legal” since legality does not equate with a moral category of what is good. Now I have probably confused you with my previous posts
But with that, my argument is an “ought” form and not one that intends to assent to what “is” the case as morally irrefutable. The church and state ought to be mutually respecting of one another which means respecting the different functions of each office. That is to say, I think that any theocratic rule does not solve the problem of oppression and coercion no matter how well formed and conceived. I think that due to the nature of human sin, the nature of oppressiveness simply take on a different and clearly often more vitriolic form as the witness of history has come to bear. To use common parlance, been there, done that. It did not and still does not work.
So what I am arguing is that what ought to be the case is a system that allows for negotiation, differences of belief, and differences of opinion to be clearly expressed without the rubric of any religious or other ideological non-negotiables that infringe upon freedom of conscience. That is what the founders wanted in theory – even if its practice is clearly not living up to what it should be especially with the current president in office. And this form is something that needs to have the ability to be continually reformed lest it become a source of dogmatic absolutism itself. That again was something that the founders were quite aware of and so, we have a system of legislation and a judiciary.
I am not asking for a burden of proof, just what the probable outcomes of the position might be. And you might not even care about that question which is fair enough and we can leave it at that – even if I would like to see your thoughts on it.
So I do not support a government that requires or allows any human to kill another human unless for justified reasons (I know that is a very slippery slope to go down right now so let’s save it for another day). I do not see a Christian killing a Christian any different than a Christian killing Hindu or a Muslim or vice versa for that matter.
If we define “the people” with equality in theory and in practice and give the opportunity for equal voice and opportunity to participate in self-governance, then, while tyranny can still certainly take on different forms, the probability must be lower than giving all of that power to a king, a pope, a priest, a mufti, etc. This is partially what checks and balances sought to protect.
I either clarified or further confused. If the latter I apologize.
Drew // February 8, 2008 at 8:24 pm |
d.w.
Let me say that I totally respect that vision. But I do not have confidence that it will ever happen. It has been tried and has continually resulted in continual fractioning of the church into smaller parts. We will simply never get everyone to consent to that idea.
“Staying faithful to the narrative/memory of Jesus will keep us away from, or at least challenges Christianity, from becoming sectarian or tyrannical.”
This is how sects actually form. Look at the Anglican communion right now and soon to follow other “main-line” communions. Both groups believe they are staying faithful. More and more PCUSA churches are breaking off to join the EPC for the same exact reasons.
So if we are to organize ourselves around this vision, how can consensus ever be achieved for it to be realized? Any single vision of a utopia will lead to oppression first int he form of thought police if you will. So how can we have a voluntary assent that is also more or less universal?
Christian // February 8, 2008 at 8:39 pm |
Hey Drew,
Let me say that I actually agree with this statement:
“So what I am arguing is that what ought to be the case is a system that allows for negotiation, differences of belief, and differences of opinion to be clearly expressed without the rubric of any religious or other ideological non-negotiables that infringe upon freedom of conscience.”
The whole point of my post was not that we should overthrow the government and install a high priest. Rather, my point was to draw attention to how the “public sphere” wherein difference is respected is in fact not neutral and serves the particular rationality of the state. And, in response to this my idea of being “theocratic” has to do with how we as Christians interact in that public sphere. Put simply, it is important for Christians that we always engage others with the assumption that Christ is Lord, whether or not those others agree. And with David I think that means we must be prepared to be rejected, alienated, and/or persecuted for our “radicality”. That is really what I’m getting at. However, because the language is loaded, I realize that saying we are theocratic can be taken in the direction of state-craft.
On a different note, where and what do you teach?
Drew // February 8, 2008 at 9:02 pm |
Coolio… Let’s leave it there for now since we have some degree of understanding here. And I really have no disagreement with anything you said there either. Before blogging I cruised the Atheist v. Christian Google group quite a bit so proposing what others think is a fairy tale and then defending that is something I am used to – but it got really boring.
I did post my “state” question on my blog which really is more or less a thought experiment to explore.
I am an academic administrator and teacher at a small Mercy college in south central PA – Mount Aloysius College about 45 minutes south of State College. I teach a capstone seminar and an intro to computers class. My full time job is to direct a Title III program, the academic services division, and the senior capping courses.
Other than that I have a boring life with two sons, rescue dogs, a band, and a painfully extended dissertation writing process that talking to good folks like you is not helping get written
Peace.
d. w. horstkoetter // February 8, 2008 at 9:41 pm |
I think in some respects we already have consent because we already have a Canon. The question then becomes, of course, how interpretation works and what to do in the inevitable conflict.
The idea behind the Anglican communion is that despite the varying interpretations, they’ll still seek to hold to the via media, which they have for centuries now. For such a communion to unravel now – or at least to lose congregants again (which strikes me as similar to the separatists/puritan’s separation) – I think is again a symptom of an unbalanced theology and a deeper argument over hermeneutics. It is an unbalanced theology because one argument over one issue divides a body? Thats quibbling on a grand scale. Its an important issue, but to dissolve relationships speaks more about the people than the Jesus and community they say they ascribe to. As for a deeper argument over hermeneutics, this is nothing new for christianity and yet we still have large denominations and ecumenical movements that seek to cohere together in some fashions at least. Again, this all makes me wonder if the real argument is not actually an argument, but the fact that people need to learn to live together. This becomes a character issue in some respects. Now of course I want to leave room for genuine conflicts and one’s own conscience, but like divorce in the church, I think we rush too quickly to end what little community we have.
As for following narratives, this is also how movements start, how countries started, how the enlightenment functioned and how marriages work – belief in a common story and commitment to see the story through. If what I lined out seems sectarian, I would say that most everything then qualifies as sectarian, even the church as it functions now when it lobbies in Washington. The only way we can understand ourselves is through stories in and from a community. The question is, which community, and therefore story, does one privilege?
I want to preface what I’m going to say, that this isn’t meant as a personal attack, but the term sectarian is just as subjective as the term terrorist. This is to say, that these terms function in the same way as a label. A person or community does not fit into another bigger community (we’ll call a “normative” community for clarity sake) and therefore, as a term to distance or discredit the other person or community, sectarianism calls into question the community, largely not because it seems impractical, but because it doesn’t fit with the “normative” community. Following the rejection, it then seems impractical to be part of the disenfranchised group because it does not work/fit within the normative community. Fundamentally the normative community will not change itself, or the story that forms it, to allow for the other story/community.
Now, as far as I am concerned, I don’t think all stories should change to accommodate all other stories, and in fact some stories ought to maintain at least some rigidity or the community ceases to be, but the recognition should be made that sectarianism is a label for a rejected community. In that sense, of course all of Christianity will be “sectarian” when it sides with the poor/down trodden/oppressed. The oppressor loves nothing more than marginalizing that which questions its oppression. Hoover loved nothing more than throwing one of the Berigan’s into jail and championing a PR campaign against these “crazy catholics.”
One last thing, I do not understand this vision as a utopic vision. In some senses it is a pragmatically idealistic vision, because it seeks to work out the Christian call/community/basileia, but it will also tend to succeed and not succeed at the same time. The church is a community of broken individuals, who to some degree or another will hypocritically live out their lives, but nevertheless they can only be called hypocritical because they belong to a new creation that seeks to be Christ to the world. In other words, the believers will not always measure up, but they’ll be believers nonetheless. As long as the church continually seeks to be the kingdom in the hear and now, it will succeed in spite of its failures because the church is not based on an anthropology, but instead is grounded in a pneumatology, christology and triune-creator God. We saw this in the social Gospel’s work for child labor laws and addressing the alcoholism of their day, alcoholism of the likes we have never seen. We can see this in Oscar Romero’s work inspite of his government. We can see this in the partially inadequate Barmen declaration (it hardly acknowledged the Jews). Hopefully the church will work less brokenly in the sense of human-selfish failure and work more brokenly in the sense of Christ-sacrificial failure (I’m getting a little like Cone here…).
Halden // February 8, 2008 at 11:58 pm |
“and legislating this leads to oppression.”
I never said we should legislate Christianity. But do you really think that “secular” “neutural” political ideology has been less oppressive than those propogated by religion? It was the neutral logic of the secular that dropped the a-bomb and that tortures people in Guantanamo. I fail to see how a religous theocracy is more oppressive than secular ideologies. This is not to say that I advocate a theocratic state. I don’t think a Christian one would work because I don’t think Christianity can legitimately utilize violence. However none of this leads me to accept that Chiristianity should understand itself as one voice among others.